lilolvvorn

lilolvvorn
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I think this one is really going to come down to the very specific metrics of the question and time frame. The attack would have to DISCOVERED and ATTRIBUTABLE to a nation-state within the timeframe.  The nation states with these capabilities are likely to be very sophisticated attackers thus reducing the likelihood of discovery. Plus such an attack would likely be considered an open act of war so there are big things at stake. Using such capabilities immediately exposed the capability and the vulnerability can be patched over so sophisticated actors are not likely to waste this kind of mojo on something that is not very major. 
  • Take issue with the question metrics: there seems to be a mismatch between "nation-state" actor and the substantial losses exceeding $1MM; to prepare such sophisticated attacks requires extremely high-expertise and likely significant budget, what nation-state will go through the trouble for such a small amount. I think this question could be rephrased as two questions nation states with higher damage metric and then cybercriminals as a separate question. A recent airline software glitch (not even sophisticated cyber or AI attack) caused potentially a billion of dollars of travel related costs, why is this metric so low. 
  • Reframe the question, the question is not whether I believe countries are developing these capabilities, or whether they are even operational currently, as I think they are already; the key metric here is whether it will be discoverable after the fact by top cyber security firms or other qualified orgs. I lack the expertise to know how easy it is to discover the attack vectors / methods after an attack. However we must assume that the fact that the US, PRC, and Russia are so elite at cyber-warfare reduces the likelihood that they would be DISCOVERED and ATTRIBUTABLE TO THEM even if they did do this.
  • Furthermore, once a nation-state shows such capabilities the vulnerabilities can likely be patched; to do this attack once makes it unattackable this way in the future, and reveals your capabilities. It is unlikely for large nation-states to use these methods until they are quite perfected perhaps under cover of cybercriminal activities. 
  • Furthermore, to do such an attack on infrastructure simply to cause damage to that infrastructure seems an unlikely goal; it is most likely that such an attack would be part of a larger attack, e.g. taking out the power grid before an aerial bombardment. Such an infrastructure attack would also be considered an open act of war. Were North Korea to do something like this to the US one would expect swift retribution. Because such a powerful attack as this is unlikely out of the context of OPEN WAR, I am limiting my probability consideration to nations who are currently engaged in open war so I used a couple Google searches to see https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/countries-currently-at-war who is at war and then I am scanning that list for countries that have the capabilities, budgets, expertise to carry out both the cyber attack plus the boots on the ground or boots in the air aspect e.g. Russia/Ukraine, Israel and Iran or proxies countries. My obvious assumption, perhaps flawed, is that less wealthy nations on the list don't have the capabilities. So basically I think this question comes down to whether Russia, Ukraine, Israel, and e.g. Iran will be DISCOVERED and ATTRIBUTABLE to the attacks. I'm gonna say outside POV 25% and I'm only adding 5% based on the current events of destabilization in Iran which if the regime is actually on its way out could make them increasingly desperate, but I'm not adding any more because their capabilities were significantly weakened by attacks earlier in 2025. It may be a flawed assumption that these attacks did any damage to their cyber capabilities. I am now rethinking this because of the situation with US threats against Iran in light of killing protesters. This should bump up my outside view, if the US, Israel, and UK actually believe the regime is on its way out, this would be the exact time to do such an attack, and it would also offer the US allied nations a good testing experiment for these capabilities. I'm gonna tweak to 28%. This seems too high, I think the possibility is quite minimal of meeting the question metrics re: time.  Although US Israel and UK likely have such plans ready on the backburner for such contingencies as regime collapse, I'm expecting any retribution against Iran for protester killings to be more political theater than anything else; e.g. attacks on Iranian officials business interests, factories, possible assassination of leaders, but those won't likely be AI-powered to meet the question criteria. I'm editing down as I think the chances are quite slim to meet metrics. 
  • Another more likely scenario involving AI attacks would be long-term infestation of an adversaries networks that go undetected and are about information gathering; to be successful in this probably requires elite skills thus limiting it a few nations who are capable of it; and then here the question becomes do I think one of these attacks will be DISCOVERED within the time limit; I think there is a higher liklihood of one of these attacks being discovered, but I don't think there is really a clear metric for evaluating the damage costs of such an attack; if they stole personal data on 20 million americans, what is the damage value re: this question metric? unclear. While I think the liklihood of these AI-powered attacks are currently ongoing, the question is asking me whether it will be DISCOVERED AND ATTRIBUTABLE within the time frame. I am gonna say outside POV 60% chance these things are happening right now, but 15-20% chance they will meet the criteria for this question and time limit. 
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I think I address why I might be wrong as part of my consideration on the left, but I think its come down to whether a few countries US, Israel, Russia meet the metrics within the time frame. 

I've mentioned that something like this would be considered an act of war so if I am underestimating e.g. Israel, US, UK sense that Iran regime is on its last legs then something like this might actually be imminent; I just think because of the very limited metrics which would need to be both DISCOVERED and ATTRIBUTABLE, close time range, and what such an attack implies about very open war that its unlikely. 


The other key flaw in my thinking might be that such attacks require high-level of expertise and team budget to conduct;  its possible that a nation-state with very creative cyber people could use off the shelf AI to do something like this.

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lilolvvorn
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@ctsats  Thank you for that; let me ask a specific question about OUTSIDE VIEW with regards to CONVERTING IT TO AN ASSIGNED PROBABILITY VALUE

The GJPOPEN site has a primer on forecasts that starts off estimating the number of cars to be sold a given year. So the forecaster starts at US POPULATION > DRIVER'S LICENSE > OWNS CAR > DRIVERS CHANGE CARS > BUY NEW CAR and uses the historical data to hone in on this number. 

So this was a mock case that the instructor was walking us through to show the reasoning they go through the estimate e.g. at DRIVER'S LICENSE phase they say 75% of the population? in an inflecting tone to indicate this was a guess; never mind that this is a type of forecast that is easily searchable for an answer on the internet; let's say this was a question that is not easily lookupable, at that moment when the instructor assigns a 75% probability, are they trying to teach us that what we are meant to do is translate our gut feeling into a percentage, so if I feel the chance of something is super slim I assign a range from 1-10%; is that what probability forecasting is about at base, after we absorb all the data, we have some more or less intuitive System 1 or System 2 feeling, when there is no actual number that we translate it into a percentage of surety based on our experience as forecasters. 

Or, would you argue, as the GJPOPEN material does, that although HISTORICAL DATA may not exist for whatever we specifically happen to be forecasting, that there is always, through our own reasoning / arguments / creativity some similar reference class with actual numbers. So if I want to estimate the number of blue cars sold but I only have red car numbers I use red cars as my outside view (of course with really unprecedented things finding a REASONABLE REFERENCE CLASS won't be so easy). Rephrasing and summarizing the question, is it always preferable to start an OUTSIDE VIEW PROBABILITY ASSIGNMENT with an ACTUAL NUMBER BASED ON HISTORICAL DATA FROM SOME REFERENCE CLASS? 

Is it simply a matter of personal style, way of thinking, training and work experience, strengths and weaknesses? Should you sometimes use this gut feeling and your experience to translate that into a number, or should you always seek some actual historical reference class with some numbers? Does the inability to find an appropriate reference class with historical data just mean you haven't thought or searched hard enough? 

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Consider less probably as time goes on

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Any number of factors

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